tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2296104283452210018.post5964366837546657250..comments2024-03-28T05:12:54.089-05:00Comments on Uncle Matt's Blog: Copyright and the OSR (part 2)Matt Finchhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07678557558458924177noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2296104283452210018.post-90958792171907092112011-10-23T23:01:21.985-05:002011-10-23T23:01:21.985-05:00http://monsterbrains.blogspot.com/2011/ ... s-and....http://monsterbrains.blogspot.com/2011/ ... s-and.html<br /><br />last drawing<br /><br />some images in Kellri's CDD #4:<br /><br />http://kellri.truculent.org/CDD%234%20- ... erence.pdf<br /><br />People are not being consistent.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2296104283452210018.post-67815486741727706762011-10-23T08:32:07.975-05:002011-10-23T08:32:07.975-05:00Gentlemen, I want to commend you both for managing...Gentlemen, I want to commend you both for managing to carry on a mature, intelligent discussion here. I think you both have some valid points, although my view falls more to austrodavicus' side of things.<br /><br />It's nice to see that an internet disagreement doesn't need to devolve into name-calling and childishness. Thank you.Reese Laundryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02225208626688676372noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2296104283452210018.post-79448522818077099882011-10-23T08:19:57.102-05:002011-10-23T08:19:57.102-05:00austrodavicus, it's been enjoyable conversing ...austrodavicus, it's been enjoyable conversing with you. i'm afraid i've said all i need to say (maybe thankfully). again, i look forward to reading what you have to say on the subject in your blog. could you post a link? until then, i'll return to my lurking and occasional purchase of osr products, reaping the benefit of others creativity.dervishdelverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13803513672258666141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2296104283452210018.post-65804023267184564802011-10-22T22:29:55.650-05:002011-10-22T22:29:55.650-05:00if it was you who slipped up, would you want to be...<i>if it was you who slipped up, would you want to be made a public example of for the "good" of others?</i><br /><br />I would have no problem with that. I've said on my blog that if I act like a dickhead, tell me so. (I also pointed out that there is a difference between calling someone a dickhead and stating that they're acting like one - a distinction not everyone gets). And that holds true if I stuff up. Publicly criticise me, I can take it. In doing so you give me the opportunity to respond publicly, thus giving both sides of a story and helping others to get the full picture. A great way to throw water on the flames of gossip and misinformation.<br /><br /><i>how many bloggers has the osr lost in the recent past because of all the discord? is it really worth pushing another one out?</i><br /><br />Firstly, anyone who says "I quit my blog because of The OSR" needs to get their hand off it, because they're not being honest (see above). Secondly, I've already agreed with you that haters need calling out too. And thirdly, we're all adults who make our own decisions. We quit or not because we choose to, and not because others forced us to do so. And as for the bloke involved, if he has a blog to quit I'm not aware of it. He certainly has a forum though.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2296104283452210018.post-2869612966240640272011-10-22T22:29:20.460-05:002011-10-22T22:29:20.460-05:00no matter how you want to define it, the osr is a ...<i>no matter how you want to define it, the osr is a group. political parties are made up of individuals who identify with a label, sports are made up of individuals who identify with a label, religions are made of individuals who identify with a label. the osr may not be a well structured group, but it is a group.</i> <br /><br />We'll have to agree to disagree on this one dervishdelver. In my book a group is a bunch of people united by some sort of organised structure. People in a political party are financial members of that organisation (or at least they are in Australia). People in a sporting club are likewise financial members of the club and in team sports work together as a team. Religions are made up of people who for the most part agree on a common doctrine and if they don't tow the line they must seek a different group. <br /><br />A bunch of people gawking at a road accident aren't a group, even though they happen to be participating in the same activity. Likewise, all the people living in a particular town or suburb aren't a group. Yes they have something in common and can be given a label, they are a community, but they're a bunch of individuals, not a cohesive group. <br /><br />The same is true of bloggers and forum members - a community yes, but not an organised group. There is no financial membership, no organised structure, no common doctrine, no team, no community-wide cooperation. Just a bunch of individuals hanging around doing the same sort of stuff.<br /><br />I'm labouring the point here because there is a huge misconception out there as to what the OSR actually is. There is the real OSR and the imaginary one. That is, "the OSR" and "The OSR". <br /><br />The former one is real, it's a bunch of individuals who are participating (mostly online) in growing old school gaming. They do this in many ways and often don't agree with each other. Amusingly, some who are vocal in their hatred of the OSR are by their very actions an active part of it.<br /><br />The latter is "The OSR", an imaginary group of people who are seemingly organised in some way. People can join this OSR and quit it too, as if there was some kind of membership involved. There is a manifesto and to some there are even leaders in the OSR. All this is contrary to reality, but it doesn't stop people believing it. And sadly such a belief tends to stir up arguments as folks take an "us and them" stance.<br /><br />The OSR is simply a trend that has grown over the last several years, with roots in a variety of things such as old school forums, blogging, print on demand and pdf publishing, the OGL/SRD, retro-clones, etc. The trend is the growth in old school gaming both online and offline, in publishing, the free availability of cloned rules, etc. People are either contributing to all this in some small way, or they are not. Even commenting on an old school blog is participating in the OSR by taking part in an online discussion.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2296104283452210018.post-36191675775198692762011-10-22T20:49:34.177-05:002011-10-22T20:49:34.177-05:00austrodavicus, i look forward to what you have to ...austrodavicus, i look forward to what you have to say in your blog. but no matter how you want to define it, the osr is a group. political parties are made up of individuals who identify with a label, sports are made up of individuals who identify with a label, religions are made of individuals who identify with a label. the osr may not be a well structured group, but it is a group. particularly, those who participate online through blogs and web sites are a group. i will only mention two more things. if it was you who slipped up, would you want to be made a public example of for the "good" of others? my other comment is- how many bloggers has the osr lost in the recent past because of all the discord? is it really worth pushing another one out?dervishdelverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13803513672258666141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2296104283452210018.post-45890687984756881682011-10-22T16:15:59.957-05:002011-10-22T16:15:59.957-05:00Hmm strange, my last two paragraphs above have som...Hmm strange, my last two paragraphs above have somehow swapped places. The second-to-last paragraph is actually the final one.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2296104283452210018.post-11182303749771593142011-10-22T16:12:24.992-05:002011-10-22T16:12:24.992-05:00these things should be addressed in private, direc...<i>these things should be addressed in private, directly to the person involved.</i><br /><br />Which doesn't allow for the many to learn from the mistakes of the individual. Personally I'd rather learn from someone else's mistake than learn the hard way myself. It's a lot less painful. :-)<br /><br />It also tends to flame the fires of controversy and gossip, as people end up with only half the story.<br /><br /><i>its not the groups (osr) responsibility to address these things</i><br /><br />There is no group, there are just individuals who identify with a label. I'm not talking about a "group" confronting an issue, but of the right of an individual to express their opinion, to give their viewpoint. Especially on issues that potentially affect a much larger number of people than just the original fella.<br /><br /><i>it only spirals into a screw fest which has nothing to do with law or even how a majority may see things and gives a poor impression to people such as myself.</i><br /><br />And which is why such behaviour (by individuals) should be confronted too. Also, I would hope and expect most people would clearly see that there is no "group" dishing out justice. Just individuals expressing their opinions.<br /><br /><i>please don't take my comments as a personal swipe at you.</i><br /><br />Thanks dervishdelver, I don't.<br /><br /><i>hence, why i referred to the continual bad mouthing of certain individual. i have yet to see anyone in the forums or blogs speak up about this. which tells me these people condone it and feel the individual deserves it. but i find it in bad taste.</i><br /><br />Obviously some people feel the tone of criticism is warranted, especially given that the person in question seems, to many, to have done the same thing twice now. I believe that this is a direct result of people not knowing all the facts of the situation. <br /><br />Keeping things "private" and hidden will <i>often</i> result in misinformation and gossip. And often, just by laying all the cards on the table, such a situation is diffused. <br /><br />Basically dervishdelver, all I am saying is that there is no one right way. Saying nothing, keeping it all private isn't always the best thing to do. And that applies equally to publicly outing people. There is no one right way for all situations.<br /><br />I would suggest that this explains why people haven't spoken out in his defence. However, I'll be blogging about this soon after having swapped several private messages with the individual involved. It's clear to me from my correspondence with him that his mistakes were in no way intentional, but simply the result of ignorance compounded by bad advice from a trusted source.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2296104283452210018.post-12203088239015562272011-10-22T07:44:47.654-05:002011-10-22T07:44:47.654-05:00austrodavicus, this is why i stated in my original...austrodavicus, this is why i stated in my original post to part 1, these things should be addressed in private, directly to the person involved. or let the person who owns said copy righted material handle it themselves. its not the groups (osr) responsibility to address these things because it only spirals into a screw fest which has nothing to do with law or even how a majority may see things and gives a poor impression to people such as myself. please don't take my comments as a personal swipe at you. i only used your statement because i believe it probably is a true reflection of what many think the osr should operate like, but not everyone has the same coutesy and tack as you. hence, why i referred to the continual bad mouthing of certain individual. i have yet to see anyone in the forums or blogs speak up about this. which tells me these people condone it and feel the individual deserves it. but i find it in bad taste.dervishdelverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13803513672258666141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2296104283452210018.post-80834743123434379062011-10-22T07:17:16.545-05:002011-10-22T07:17:16.545-05:00to this i can only respond by stating: rule/enforc...<i>to this i can only respond by stating: rule/enforcement by consensus either = stagnation (no one will come to common agreement) or = compromise/degradation (agreement at the lowest common denominator).</i><br /><br />dervishdelver, I think you're reading things into my comment that I didn't intend. I wasn't talking about either rule or enforcement, but something more along the lines of peer review. I was specifically talking about publishers, amateur or otherwise, and not the wider old school community. <br /><br />OSR publishers, like their D20 counterparts, are a loose group that range from the professional to the amateur. Most know what they're doing, a few don't. Some just need their errors pointed out to them (which is very different from trying to boss them around or to enforce some sort of groupthink) for the penny to drop. Usually this is simply because they are ignorant of such things as the correct way to utilise the OGL, having a basic understanding of copyright, or whatever. Nothing sinister, nothing bullying, just plain speaking.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2296104283452210018.post-37965750827355009682011-10-22T06:33:42.059-05:002011-10-22T06:33:42.059-05:00Matt, in light of the stink that continues to emer...Matt, in light of the stink that continues to emerge from this issue as witnessed at the K&K, i think it warrants a part 3. im not sure why i keep sticking my nose in this. i guess i thought i would be helping some of you by giving an outsiders perspective and for some reason it just sticks in my craw. i can only reference my previous posts in part 1 and 2 when i say it's a minority within the osr that brought this upon themselves.<br /><br />austrodavicus said... "Given that there is no central authority in the OSR, publishers within the community rely on the judgement of their peers. Naming someone for a bad call to promote discussion over the issue can both open their eyes to their error in judgement, as well as educate the wider community as to what is acceptable and proper in the scene." <br /><br />to this i can only respond by stating: rule/enforcement by consensus either = stagnation (no one will come to common agreement) or = compromise/degradation (agreement at the lowest common denominator).<br />Agreement at the lowest common denominator usually has nothing to do with law, but rather, personal opinion and influence amongst the community.<br /><br />BTW, it seems people continue to disparage the individual responsible for the origination of this post, even though he is not truly responsible for the current legal issues of another. ugh!<br /><br />i may have been wrong in my original comments to this article about outsiders impressions. the major TV networks seem to think so. that's why we have reality TV with such drivel as "The DMZ" and "The Jersey Shore". So, maybe my advice was wrong and everyone should ramp it up a notch with the drama.(sarcasm)dervishdelverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13803513672258666141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2296104283452210018.post-72024074166062149562011-10-22T03:01:40.129-05:002011-10-22T03:01:40.129-05:00Re: My musings in the "Frazetta copy"
I...Re: My musings in the "Frazetta copy"<br /><br />I wasn't asked for permission. It was already available by the time I heard about it. I think it's flattering that someone thinks highly enough of the musings to include them as an appendix to a "single volume" compilation of the OD&D rules. That's way cool. I'm not at all upset about it. Nevertheless, I doubt that I would have given permission because of the trademark and copyright issues (WotC's the the Frazetta estate's, not mine). Had I been asked, I would've been obliged to say "no." <br /><br />I've given permission to several people who've asked to use my musings in PDFs and such that are being distributed, but never in anything that infringes on someone else's trademarks or copyrights (that I know of, anyway). At this point though, all the copies of my musings (including what is up on my site) are out-of-date. At some point maybe I'll get around to releasing the expanded musings. Or I might stay too busy working and playing games to bother. ::grin::<br /><br />FWIW, I'm sympathetic to Geoffrey's argument about victimless "crime." But I also prefer to avoid blatantly waving a red cape in front of the bull, even if the bull is full of bullshit. At least when there are other options. And in the case of copyright and D&D, I think there are other options (e.g. retro-clones, fair-use supplements that avoid trademark infringement, et cetera).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2296104283452210018.post-23569736595310229052011-10-20T14:01:47.395-05:002011-10-20T14:01:47.395-05:00maasenstodt, where I come from, taking what doesn&...maasenstodt, where I come from, taking what doesn't belong to you IS immoral. This holds true regardless if the other person isn't technically left with "one less thing."Bree Yark!https://www.blogger.com/profile/06805609633299134038noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2296104283452210018.post-75583489534487777432011-10-19T18:28:38.832-05:002011-10-19T18:28:38.832-05:00You can totally print out the Swords & Wizardr...You can totally print out the Swords & Wizardry docs; they're there for that, for free. It's not illegal at all.Matt Finchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07678557558458924177noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2296104283452210018.post-8174344294915210622011-10-19T18:11:37.054-05:002011-10-19T18:11:37.054-05:00@ Bree Yark!, if, by a game, we're talking abo...@ Bree Yark!, if, by a game, we're talking about a physical item (book, box set, etc.) that someone owns, I certainly agree that taking it without permission is theft and, therefore, is wrong.<br /><br />However, if we're talking about information (including text, illustrations, etc.), it is a different matter altogether because copying, while perhaps disrespectful of the content's creator and/or counterproductive if one wants to encourage more content creation, is not theft. Because no one has been deprived of something they owned, the act of copying might be distasteful, but it isn't immoral.<br /><br />I'd wouldn't have purchased a printed copy of Matt's Tome of Adventure Design from someone who simply printed the .pdf, even if it cost less than what Frog God Games charges. The reason is that I want to see Matt rewarded for his work and I'd like to encourage him to create more great stuff. When it comes to OD&D, though, those factors don't come into play. Not only do I not see the distribution of print copies of OD&D as being immoral, I don't even find it distasteful. To the contrary, in fact - I think it's a great thing to share!maasenstodthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08901306527875471546noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2296104283452210018.post-25822501046062830372011-10-19T13:55:12.201-05:002011-10-19T13:55:12.201-05:00I try to obey laws because a) I think many of of t...I try to obey laws because a) I think many of of them have some real benefit that is worthwhile according to my values system(i.e.: no right turn on red in a pedestrian heavy city like NYC probably saves lives) and b) I usually don't want to suffer the consequences of breaking the law. I mean, if I'm going to get in trouble, I'd want it to be for an act of civil disobedience because I feel that a law is unjust, not for printing up counterfeit Mickey Mouse T-shirts and trying to sell them in Times Square.<br />I wouldn't think printing up a rpg booklet for my friends with swiped artwork as a form of disobedience that I could be proud of the way some civil rights protesters could point to 'when they broke the law by sitting at the whites only table in Montgomery Alabama in 1965.'<br />I think that there are enough retro-clones out there that I don't need to resort to piracy to get what I want. Some of them even provide a word document if I want to edit the test to my own taste. Printing off a few copies for my gaming table might be technically "illegal" (or at least in a grey area since the authors of said works provided me their text 'for editing'), but, as long as I am not distributing it or trying to make a buck off of it, I don't lose any sleep over it.Stefan Poaghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08192911890556534923noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2296104283452210018.post-85485135201872225112011-10-19T07:53:23.344-05:002011-10-19T07:53:23.344-05:00maasenstodt, we're not talking about copying a...maasenstodt, we're not talking about copying and disseminating information, but games. Games that are product, typically produced by someone else, not you.<br /><br />I see far too much of this mindset today: I want it, you have it, gimme it. Just because someone else has something you want doesn't mean you're entitled to it.Bree Yark!https://www.blogger.com/profile/06805609633299134038noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2296104283452210018.post-25450592641197625982011-10-18T23:46:01.113-05:002011-10-18T23:46:01.113-05:00I agree with Tim Brennan that one shouldn't fe...I agree with Tim Brennan that one shouldn't feel alright about disobeying a law simply because one has already broken others.<br /><br />Having said that, I also think that the vast majority of laws have nothing to do with moral and immoral behavior, but rather providing benefits to some parties at the expense of others. While I don't want to be kidnapped by guys with badges and guns for disobeying an unjust law bought and paid for by Walt Disney et al in order to provide them with rents, my greatest concern is whether my actions are moral or not.<br /><br />I don't see the least bit of immorality in copying and disseminating information. Thus, with regards to obeying intellectual monopoly laws, the primary moral consideration that I have to consider is that disobeying them may be a positive step in the process of overcoming them.maasenstodthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08901306527875471546noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2296104283452210018.post-24602271894751962692011-10-18T23:17:13.427-05:002011-10-18T23:17:13.427-05:00"But there's a big caveat there -- this w..."But there's a big caveat there -- this would only really apply to your actual, real, gaming group. Not to someone on the net."<br /><br />How do you view ConstantCon and the potential for international gaming groups numbering in the dozens or even hundreds?maasenstodthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08901306527875471546noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2296104283452210018.post-34402578527927471832011-10-18T18:10:00.609-05:002011-10-18T18:10:00.609-05:00i know there are many others like me checking out ...<i>i know there are many others like me checking out these blogs and even purchasing osr material that get a bad impression when alot of drama breaks loose over these things.</i><br /><br />And this is exactly why some issues need to be confronted without any beating around the bush. <br /><br />The OSR, while not an organisation, is a label people self-identify with and which has become a brand name of sorts. Individuals who do something to give people "a bad impression" damage not only their own image, but the image of other OSR publishers and the wider old school gaming community as a whole. <br /><br />Given that there is no central authority in the OSR, publishers within the community rely on the judgement of their peers. Naming someone for a bad call to promote discussion over the issue can both open their eyes to their error in judgement, as well as educate the wider community as to what is acceptable and proper in the scene. <br /><br />But I strongly agree with you dervishdelver, this all depends on how that criticism is dished out. As I suggested previously, there's a big difference between delivering criticism objectively and with respect, and kicking the dog. Those who choose to kick the dog should come under the judgement of their peers just as much as the guy that makes an error in judgement.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2296104283452210018.post-38885081515342273752011-10-18T17:33:01.743-05:002011-10-18T17:33:01.743-05:00austrodavicus,
i reread your post in response to m...austrodavicus,<br />i reread your post in response to my comments and i don't believe i disagree with you. but, unlike many of you, i'm a casual gamer who had found and followed the osr for the past year and a half only because it took me back to a simpler time when i first started playing D&D. That being said, i know there are many others like me checking out these blogs and even purchasing osr material that get a bad impression when alot of drama breaks loose over these things. everyone always roots for the underdog, especially when the dogs being kicked. so, why would anyone want to be associated as the guy kicking the dog?dervishdelverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13803513672258666141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2296104283452210018.post-15800809070445466472011-10-18T16:53:01.670-05:002011-10-18T16:53:01.670-05:00@Austrodavicus, even though you were only commenti...@Austrodavicus, even though you were only commenting generally, your point was important enough that I wanted to stop and think about whether I was right or wrong to approach this using the "maintain anonymity" method. I didn't mean to suggest that you had gone after me specifically, but I did want to consider whether you should have. :)Matt Finchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07678557558458924177noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2296104283452210018.post-73895746194627748792011-10-18T16:46:42.252-05:002011-10-18T16:46:42.252-05:00The logic still doesn't follow.
I have been w...The logic still doesn't follow.<br /><br />I have been working at universities as professor, instructor or researcher for my entire adult life. I have been to many legal libraries including one of the largest open shelf legal libraries in the country so no, I wouldn't be all that surprised to be honest. <br /><br />But I'll look up that book all the same. <br /><br />Until the law is changed it is against the law. Just because someone is not victimized or profiting from it though is still not enough for me to say it is OK to do a morally questionable thing. Taking someone else's work with out paying or other proper attribution is still theft to me.Timothy S. Brannanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02923526503305233715noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2296104283452210018.post-29436277732621205132011-10-18T16:29:56.067-05:002011-10-18T16:29:56.067-05:00I'd like to address a comment from the first i...<i>I'd like to address a comment from the first installment, made by Austrodavicus. He makes the point that by not naming names but mentioning products, I could create the potential for a witch hunt and rumors.</i><br /><br />My comment wasn't aimed at you Matt, but was a response to the previous comment by dervishdelver. I purposely used the word "often" rather than "always" because I don't believe it's always good or appropriate to name names.<br /><br />And speaking of naming names, I'm happy to out myself as the "editor" of the "Frazetta version". There are indeed two versions of it - my original and the one on Lulu re-edited by another (who I seem to recall got permission from Philotomy to add his Musings as an appendix). <br /><br />I sourced the Frazetta art off the internet and clearly stated in the credits that its use was unauthorized. <br /><br />At no stage have I overtly and publicly provided links to the document, nor have I uploaded it to any vendor sites such as Lulu or RPGNow. I made it available to a small group of people on a private forum. <br /><br />Having said that, I confess my desire that the file would go viral on the internet (as is the nature of the beast). My motivation is that the increasingly expensive original game remain realistically available to new generations of gamers. And while I'm not willing to publicly distribute the document, I have no problems with people doing whatever they want with it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2296104283452210018.post-37983563238878320582011-10-18T15:25:17.660-05:002011-10-18T15:25:17.660-05:00That book sounds really interesting. I don't t...That book sounds really interesting. I don't think that sort of thing is the cause of high imprisonment rates (I agree with Tenkar that the drug war is largely responsible for that), but there definitely is a terrifying number of things that are technically illegal. For the most part they are illegal either because someone wrote a law poorly or because the law is overly inclusive in order to prevent real criminals using a technicality to avoid or evade the consequences. However, with alarming frequency, a totally normal situation can catch someone up into a Kafkaesque situation.<br /><br />But I'm with Tim, the conclusion to draw isn't that it's therefore fair game to break any law one wants to, the conclusion is that we need to be keeping a closer eye on lawmakers, law enforcement, and prosecutors.Matt Finchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07678557558458924177noreply@blogger.com